Today in court Gawker learned what happens when Hulkamania runs wild on you after a jury ordered Gawker to pay $115 million dollars in compensatory damages to Hulk Hogan.

Marc Randazza, a free speech lawyer, spoke to me live after the verdict to share his thoughts on the case as well as to discuss Gawker’s next legal move.

Danger & Play Media hot takes:

  • Gawker had excellent legal counsel, this was simply a case no one could win.
  • New York snark does not translate well to judges and juries.
  • Gawker will need to post an appeal bond of 10% of the damages verdict.
  • The jury may award up to 3 times the $115 million in punitive damages, for a total award of hundreds of millions of dollars.
  • Gawker’s revenue last year were around $44 million. There’s no way Gawker can afford to pay this verdict.
  • Gawker owns several websites like Jezebel and Kotaku. Those sites may be sold off to the (lowest) bidder.
  • In order to appeal the verdict, Gawker must put up the full verdict amount, or pay 10% (non-refundable) to a company. Bottom line: Gawker will need to pay millions of dollars out of pocket to appeal the Hulk Hogan verdict.

Gawker might not get up from this atomic leg drop.


M.C.: Hi. So, Marc Randazza is a First Amendment lawyer. He lives and breathes free speech. He has handled a bunch of high-profile First Amendment cases on, sort of, every angle. He’s done everything from defending people who have been sued for defamation, including myself (he was my lawyer in a defamation case), and he even took out a lot of revenge porn websites which maybe we will talk about one of these days. But right now. I guess, Marc, I just want to hear your take on this Gregory Allan Elliot case. It’s madness.

Randazza: Well, the decision isn’t madness. The decision is fantastic. It shows that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms up north of the border is a robust protection for freedom of expression which is something. Because the Canadians get a bit of a bad rep, I think, from some free speech types down here saying that they don’t have freedom of expression down there. They do. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects your right to free expression in some ways more than the First Amendment. Although there are willing to move the line a bit for some exceptions which aren’t always terribly unreasonable. Bona fide incitement and hate speech can sometimes be repressed. Now, that can be a problem because, you see, in a case like this really I couldn’t see anything in this, and I have been following this case since its inception. I didn’t see anything here except a guy dared to disagree with somebody who was able to be loud enough to get a prosecutor to care. I mean that prosecutor to even file these charges – it’s shameful.

M.C.: Yes, so let’s take a step back. I mean I agree with all of that but the first thing you’ve said was, which I didn’t know if it is true, that Canada does actually have a pretty robust First Amendment.

Randazza: Well, it’s not the First Amendment actually.

M.C.: Right.

Randazza: The Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Article 2 protects freedom of expression. You have freedom of expression protection in most civilized countries. I remember back when I was in law school Scalia came and thought my con law class for one day. And he started off by teaching us about the Soviet constitution and its protection for freedom of expression textually was fantastic. I mean, he read off the text of it to us and said “Doesn’t it sound great? That sounds better than the First Amendment!” And everybody says “yes”. And he says “Well, it’s just words on paper. That’s the Soviet constitution”. So, you really need to have a government that would actually respects the constitution, if it’s to mean anything. So, if you look at the American constitution and you look at the Canadian constitution, the Canadian Charter, well, you have a prosecutor who will bring a case like this. Yes, it’s great that the court has acted as a backstop for it, but still this guy went through years of worrying “Am I going to go to prison for this and sit down in a jail cell?” And somebody says “What are you in for?” And he says “Well, I had the audacity to disagree with a feminist, and so that’s why I am here. Because disagreement is now harassment”.

M.C.: Yeah, that’s the trend I am seeing. I read the case and couldn’t believe it, actually. I had to read it over and over again because it didn’t make much sense to me and I thought I have been trolled. I thought that maybe I had the wrong sources. But what happened is he disagreed with a girl. She started trolling him. She even created sock puppet accounts to troll him from those accounts. And then he basically called her a “fucking bitch”, “stupid idiot hack”, and she went to the police. I was expecting a death threat or something along the lines like “I am coming to get you with my k-bar” “I got a loaded gun waiting for you”. There wasn’t anything wrong or even resembling that. I couldn’t believe the case was ever brought. I see that there are a lot of people who want that to come to the US. Is that what you are seeing?

Randazza: I do. And look, this about me. I think politically we are not on the same page. I am a very hard core left-wing. U-Mass journalism! That’s almost a Leningrad University in 1976. But I am very upset. I don’t really seem to have that many friends on my end of the political spectrum anymore, because I see them starting to employ the tactics that the right wing used to use. And it’s really disturbing. First of all, it is by any means necessary tactic. And, unfortunately, I see them saying they’ve internalized this idea that fighting sexism and racism is the most important thing in the world. And, therefore, if we have got to break a few eggs on the way, well then, that’s all right. So, if innocent people have to be prosecuted, for example, if innocent people have to be prosecuted for rape in order to raise awareness of the fact that rape is a problem – that’s worth it. If we have to drive some people out of their jobs or prosecute some people for this kind of speech or that kind of speech, so the rest of us say “maybe we shouldn’t say “cunt” anymore, because we are all afraid of that because it can get you landed in a big trouble”, maybe that will bring about a better world. And the really scary thing about it is that it’s at least logical in their mind. If your decision is that the absolute best thing in the world would be the world where “it is of this view”. Well, so what would you do to get there? It’s kind of like back in the mid 2000’s when I was defending pornography companies and I was getting death threats from Christians, and I started carrying a gun because it was people who really believed that there is a God, and his son is Jesus and he wants people like me dead, because people like me are stopping the bringing-about of Heaven on Earth. How do you fight that? How do you argue with that? And you have the exact saying, just transpose to a different political view from the left now. And we do not hear a whole lot from the right wing on this. Some of thins I have seen people are willing to ruin careers and take away people’s freedom because it is a move on a chessboard of changing the world to their view. It is terrifying!

M.C.: Yep. The evolution that I’ve seen fascinates me because I remember I would read books about the heroes of the First Amendment, and they would march with the Nazis, the ACLU would march with the Nazis and said “these people are the worst people in the world, but if you take away their right, you should take away everyone’s right”. I look at the organizations like the ACLU – boy, they surely seem to follow that social justice model of what should and shouldn’t be free speech.

Randazza: I was a member of ACLU for years, and I stopped supporting them because they seem to have become, for the large part, I mean, let’s not take away some of the good things they continue to do. There are still some dissidents inside the ACLU for whom civil liberties mean more than civil rights. And I am not saying I’ve got anything against an organization that’s there for civil rights but there are already the organizations that do that. I’ll give you an example here in Nevada. There was an attempt to get rid of our Anti-SLAPP Statute which is there to protect freedom of expression. And when the lobbyists, who decided to bring that bill that would repeal it, brought this up, there was an ACLU lobbyist in the room! And when I asked, “what were you thinking?” I can swear on this, right?

M.C.: Yeah.

Randazza: Well, I asked: “What were you thinking? Where were you?” And, her answer was “well, the other guy just seemed to know what he was talking about”. And there was a time when the ACLU would have thrown a fit at something like that. Meanwhile, they were much more focused on a bill dealing with transgender bathrooms.

M.C.: Right.

Randazza: And emotionally I am with that as well… I don’t understand why people gotta bother, if somebody is transgender. Leave them alone! Why are we bothering them? I am very much in favor of transgender rights. I didn’t have anything against that bill, but if you lose the right to freedom of expression, you certainly not gonna be able to advocate for transgender rights. But if we have got all these transgender rights but no free expression, we are done. That’s where your expansion of rights ends. However, in some recent cases the ACLU has taken up the unpopular anti-PC cause in the Redskins’ case. So, there are some dissidents in it, but really the ACLU has become whatever the trendy liberal cause of the day is, including many causes that I am fully in favor of. But that isn’t their job, because when the ACLU is asleep at the switch, there is no one backing them up to do their job for them.

M.C.: Right. There is GLAD. There are all kinds of organizations to take on transgender rights.

Randazza: Sure, and they should.

M.C.: Yeah. But it’s more in vogue now to promote these other issues and I think that’s because the left wing largely controls the media. What I have noticed is that whoever is in power wants to censor others. That’s how I can kind of tell who’s really running the media.

Randazza: Yeah.

M.C.: It used to be more a conservative culture. You couldn’t have men and women sleeping in the same beds in the 1960s. Remember the sitcoms? The old black-and-whites where everybody was in separate beds? It was much a more puritanical society for better or for worse. And they you need radical liberals to say “no, you are censoring art, you are censoring expression – we need to fight back against that”. And that it was the rights are saying “no, we need to preserve morality”. And then, what I have seen happens now, the right has fallen out of power, the left now has the power and the left is saying “well, no, I mean, you can’t have free speech if you are silencing voices, and if your voices are so strong that they make others feel uncomfortable to talk, you don’t have free speech anymore”. What do you think about that?

Randazza: I have always said that, my believes are strong enough that they can stand an opposition to somebody else’s. I have had a lot of people asking me about. Many people that I associate with, including you: “Jesus! How can you stand that guy? How can you stand her with this view?” I don’t really care what your view is. In fact people who disagree with me, I feel like I grow more by them being around me. Challenge me, debate me. We can sit around, we can argue till we are blue in the freaking face. I mean you can hang out with people who are fans of a different sports team than you, right?

M.C.: Right.

Randazza: We can sit and scream at our friend that, Peyton Manning… no way he measures up to Tom Brady. And we can scream “fuck you” at each other the whole time. And at the end of the day so what? It’s just a game. Well, it’s kind of the same with politics and me, except I am smarter if you challenge me. And if I change my mind because you convince me to do that, that’s the marketplace of ideas. You wanna know really, exactly what this country is all about? You go to one place… I had a guy from Italy ask me “What do I need to read to understand what you do?” And I tell him to go to the all over of ideas and the best test of an idea is whether the marketplace will allow it to grow or whether it gets rejected. And you’ve got to put bad ideas in there. That’s why we need to protect the Nazis, we need to protect the KKK, we need to protect voices that we disagree with. And when I wanna shut someone up because I disagree with their opinion, that’s immediately when you think “God, I wish this guy would shut up”, that’s when you wake up right there and say “I have got to back away from that and really make sure that somebody doesn’t shut them up because even if I don’t agree with them, even if I want to kill their idea, I wanna kill their idea with my idea not by manipulating the process.

M.C.: Well, and another aspect overlooked is my answer is always “we are talking, we are not shooting each other” which isn’t something people in America appreciate … The idea is we are just not gonna talk. Well, ok, if you ignore that guy, he is not gonna believe what he believes. What happens now is all the lunatics are going underground, they talk to other little lunatics, they form little bum squads and the next thing you know people are shooting each other and that’s because you said “well, that person does not deserve a seat at the table”. Fine, he won’t sit at your table. He’ll go and sit with all the lunatics. The way I was looking at it is you are liberal, you are on a different team. I feel that way too and I don’t view politics as much as like religion like most people do. The way I see this “yeah, Mark thinks that, I know he is a pretty good guy – maybe there is something that’s not on point. But we are still talking”.

Randazza: Yeah, and maybe one day you’ll come around to my thing. My view on it. Well, I have some pretty radical left-wing views. I lived in Sweden a long time ago, and I loved the fact that there was at that time (things have changed now), there was just no poverty. It didn’t exist. It was a foreign concept to them. There was also no real extreme wealth because they had 99% income tax bracket: once you hit a certain amount and I thought that’s a nice equalizing thing that you can become rich but you can’t become distortedly rich. Society distortedly rich. And I remember debating it with some right-friend of mine yeah but I don’t want the government… the government is just gonna waste that money. I don’t care if they go and burn it. Even Bernie Sanders would say that I am a little bit too far left for him. But it doesn’t mean that we are not all in the same league. We are on different teams in the same league because ultimately I would hope we either want what’s best for everyone, we either have some belief in a collective responsibility to each other even if someone who believes no income taxes and complete laissez-faire most people commend because they say that’s best for everyone. So if I agree that the guy on the very very far right, it was a complete laissez-faire republican, no regulation, no taxes, no nothing and let the chips fall where they may and if you starve to death because of that, it’s because you weren’t good enough to make it. He still thinks that’s best for everyone. There are not very many people who are a 100% out for themselves and don’t give a shit about how it affects anyone else. It’s a difficult view to have.

M.C.: And I think that’s why you get a lot of push-back from people where they say: “Oh, Randazza says he is liberal but he is really not because he believes in XYZ”. But we’ve got to the point now where people don’t believe things. You are either good or you’re evil if you have your own thoughts. There is no like… Oh, that guy has his views on the economy because he’s mistaken maybe he read the wrong books or maybe he’s confused… No, I know that his heart is evil. And even now, and we can talk about Twitter a little bit, we now know you can write 10 000 000 words on the Internet, publish books but if once on Twitter you say one thing wrong, people know now that you are evil and they’ll do everything they can do to ruin your life.

Randazza: I know I am doing something right when I have people on the left and on the right yelling at me that I am the other thing. A few months ago Mother Jones did a story where it described me as a right wing conservative lawyer and I thought wow, that’s funny. I haven’t been called that before. But because I was speaking up on behalf of the free speech rights of some people who happen to be right wing. I get call from people all the time where I tell them I just want to make sure I don’t agree with a goddamn thing you’ve got to say here but I feel like it makes me a better lawyer for you because I am not drinking your coolaid, you’re drinking mine. You’re here to express the fact that you have a right to speak and I don’t care what it is you’re saying. At the same time I don’t buy into the campus censorship, I don’t buy into the feminist view, I don’t buy into a critical race theory, I don’t buy into what a Tenisi Code has to say or Catharine MacKinnon, well now I am the enemy because I don’t believe that. When I look at something a typical left-wing cause like equal pay for women, who could be against that? I don’t know maybe there are some reasonable minds against that but who can be against that? Why the hell shouldn’t a woman make the same amount of money doing the same exact job with the same exact performance? That’s just fucking wrong! But you look at this statistics that people like to throw around and it says well women only make 77 cents on a dollar. That’s infuriating, that’s outrageous. But then you actually look at the stats and, hold on, it’s closer to 95 cents on the dollar. That doesn’t mean that 5% isn’t still a damn problem. And it has no other explanation except for the discrimination. And when there is a 5% spread on discrimination or a 23% spread on discrimination. You are not helping anything by lying. Come to me and tell me it’s 5% unfair, and I’ll help you get that 5% fixed. You come to me and lie that it’s 23% unfair – go fuck yourself! I am not gonna be a part of helping you. Change it to 23% because all of a sudden I have got a son and a daughter, and I don’t want to explain my son one day that he has to make 17% less than his sister because we had to correct for some past justice that we now not gonna go and put back.

M.C.: Yeah, the same is true of college campus rape. If someone says hey there is a problem maybe girls drink a little bit too much, they pass out – things happen, I am like yeah, maybe we should talk about that. When you tell me that 1 in 5 women are raped, that’s like the Congo, that is war zone and then you tell people well, Okay, 1 in 5 women are being raped in college campuses, you wouldn’t send a girl there. That would be like sending her to a rape zone but when you bring up these points, that’s why they wanna censor you because they are afraid to test their ideas in a marketplace of ideas because it’s fraudulent essentially because if you are telling the truth you don’t have any fear of other people counter arguing with you.

Randazza: Well, they forget that words have meaning too. It’s not rape it’s sexual assault, it’s not sexual assault – it’s sexual harassment. Well, what does that mean? When I was in college; my belief was “play the numbers”. If I thought a girl was attractive, I would just say “I think you are hot. Do you wanna have sex with me?” Why? Because first, I was just completely idiotic about how to talk to women but then I was like I will just ask every girl I wanna sleep with and if you ask a thousand girls and you get 1% back, that’s not a bad rate of return. Today, I’d find myself out on my ass. I’d be expelled from school for that. Meanwhile is that really harassment? That’s harassment? Hey, I think you are attractive and I’d like to sleep with you. If you are down, great. If you are not, thank you anyway.

M.C.: They are free to find harassment to be like annoying. That’s one of the problems. To harass or annoy a person. Well, fuck a lot of things annoy me, man. Everybody’d be in jail.

Randazza: And this is not a new thing. I remember when I started at UMass, I got there in 1987 and it was great. This was college. There was … People enjoyed themselves, people studied and then all of a sudden a year later things really started to change. And I remember my dorm I put a Dick Kennedy’s poster on my door – it was the Nazi punks “fuck-off” poster and had the swastika with a round circle with a red stripe through it. Any idiot anywhere in the world even if you are illiterate, you could go anywhere and you see that symbol, you know what that means. That means I am not in favor of that. And I got written up for having an anti-semitic poster on my door. Frankly, it was hurtful. Are you kidding me? This is the exact opposite. I mean I wouldn’t have minded if I put something up and had not realized it was anti-semitic. You put up an SS symbol because you think it means something else. I could see if it was just a mistake or … if hell, even if I had put up a swastika and said Heil Hitler, I should have that right, shouldn’t I?

M.C.: I’d say so, yeah of course.

Randazza: But I was the exact opposite. And they said well that doesn’t really matter because another student saw it and felt threatened and felt afraid and you caused that so you are responsible. How the hell am I responsible for how they react? At my dorm a couple of years later, we put a pirate flag up on the roof because we were kids and we thought it was great. We were the pirate ship. And this black Arab came and through a fit that it was a racist symbol because pirates were part of the slave trade. I am like you gotta be kidding me. You are so desperate to impress somebody in the victims’ studies department. They hear you are saying something so childish as a pirate flag. Now my daughter dresses up as a pirate, do I have to look at her and say well you shouldn’t do that because we have black friends.

M.C.: Well, and ironically what a lot of this stuff is doing is creating more sort of racism and sexism because if you tell people Oh, I am a woman and if you say something I disagree with, you are harassing me then you are saying that women are weak. Okay, I just can’t argue with women I guess because women are weak. And maybe you started thinking that’s why there is a pay cap maybe. There are men now, they can’t say this, but I can say whatever I want, I hear from men all the time, tech, real sophisticated guys, the least threatening guys you should meet. They say yes, I will never meet one-on-one with a woman in my office now because she can say whatever she wants. And if she says something, my life is over. Well, one-on-one face time – that’s mentorship, that’s opportunities, that’s when you connect with people that you wanna reconnect with. So, what I am seeing happening is that a lot of good women are getting fucked over by the feminists and the other nuts because every guy out there with a brain now and with something to lose is afraid to be alone with a woman.

Randazza: Yeah, or it just hurts the cause because you may not take someone seriously that you otherwise would have. I am not willing to write off the entire feminist movement. But there is a lot of rational people who are because when the team comes to me when that brand is used to justify things like that, it makes it very difficult to take things seriously at all. Back to my argument about is it a 5% or 23%? If you tell me the truth that it’s 5%, then I will lock arms with you and I will fight right alongside with you to get rid of that 5% because there is no way that you should make 5% less just because you have a vagina. Unless it’s a job that you shouldn’t have a vagina to do like I can’t think of a job that you don’t need a dick to do. Unless it’s like a penis lotion applicator or something. But how do I take you seriously when you stand up there and say you want 23% more than you are getting?

M.C.: Well, it’s just the same as with all these hate crime hoaxes. I sort of laugh now at people who call me whatever, I think they know my views, and I thought that was all about “the black lives matter” type stuff before it existed. If you told me 5-10 years ago that blacks are getting hit over their heads with clubs too much, there is police misconducts out of line and everything, yeah, of course, I was right there I wrote about that stuff but then what I see happen is every time there is news hanging from somewhere some idiot put it there. Every time there is some big hate crime, you look behind the surface and it’s a hoax. So, me? – I am checked out on all this. I don’t really care anymore because I think everything is a hoax now, I don’t believe anything I read now.

Randazza: Well, the thing is victimhood is currency. If you can shut down a discussion by saying you can’t say that because I am or you can’t say that because you are something, if you can actually say you’d understand how horrible it is the Godfather marathon is on if you were Sicilian.

M.C.: Right.

Randazza: Hey, I don’t like that movie. I hate that movie. I think that that movie, I hate the Sopranos and I don’t give a shit what the First Amendment says – there is no First Amendment in my house. I don’t allow my family to watch it here. Why? Because I don’t like the stereotypes that it perpetuates. I would never ever want somebody not to watch the Sopranos if they wanted to, but I am not gonna shut down the discussion on it and say you don’t know what you are talking about because you haven’t walked in front of a judge and realized that the judge is just looking at you like you are from “My Cousin Vinny”. I am not gonna play the victimhood God. And the sad part is you are right because it is turning believers into non-believers. I agree, for example my argument against the death penalty is I don’t believe in it primarily because I know innocent people go to the electric chair or go to the gas chamber or lethal injection And if you look at the statistics, you don’t get the death penalty for being guilty, you get the death penalty for being black. There is no way you are gonna tell me there is no racism in the application of the death penalty and the thought that you could wind up dying, you get due process or what we call due process, and you die because of the color of your skin? That is fucked up beyond belief! And if you are black, you’ve got the right to be pissed off about that. But you know what? If you are black, what are you? 17% of the population. ?

M.C.: Right

Randazza: I don’t know the exact statistics

M.C.: 13%

Randazza: 13, 17, 20… 30%. Guess what? You are not gonna do jack shit about it without getting everybody with you. So what do we do to fix that problem? You need to have people united but guess what? There is nothing (this is the leftist in me now) that scares the people in charge more than us being united. That scares the shit out of them. Racism is I believe a capitalist construct. They put it together because in the South how great was it? Imagine – in the South in the Civil War. You have got entire 13 states worth of people to fight to protect the right of 1.5% of the populations that owns slaves. That’s brilliant marketing. You have got to give it to the Southern slave owners for that. They have continued with this brilliant marketing to this day. And back in Jim Crow you could tell “poor white people, your life sucks but at least you are not a nigger” and now great – the two of them are at each others’ throats and meanwhile the guy that owns the plantations is still sitting there, sitting pretty while the poor whites and the poor blacks are fighting with each other. And the day when the two of them look at each other and say “you know what? we all are getting shafted by that guy over in the big house”, then where are they? So I think to me that’s I see the unfortunate thing I see when I see Black Lives Matter. When I see the way that they have approached a problem, what upsets me about it is they are playing into that. And setting back the cause of social justice. When I see kids going through the library at Dartmouth screaming at white kids fuck your comfort, fuck your tears, fuck your studying… Well, if I was sitting in that library, you think I’d say I ought to be getting up there with you or you think I’d say if what you are saying is that I am privileged over you and you are acting like an uncivilized piece of shit to me? I got a lot of things I could care about. I can only care about so many things at a time. On the other hand, if the marketing of that program or the marketing of that movement. You wanna sell this to all white people and say I could be your grandson. It’s not that hard for a black guy to look at me and say I could be your son. We can connect, we are human beings. But I don’t think BLM has done that. I think BLM is more about the leaders of the movement wanting to get unearned privilege by victim currency rather than really try and join people together and say what the real problem is? – we have over-militarized the police and cops that are at war with the population. We ought to be not linking arms because somebody convinces me that they are killing too many black people because they are. Black people are way more disproportionally fucked over and killed for nothing by the police. But if you wanna fix that problem, you’ve got to fix the police. And you are not gonna get the other 80% of the population together with you by acting in such a way that just alienates everybody that would be on your side.

M.C.: Yeah, I was there. I remember before any of those guys were around, in 2004, just ratings about police stated that there were a lot of people who felt that way and were totally on board. But now I look at Black Lives Matter and I realize, I see how they talk to me, they talk to other people, they don’t give a fuck about me to the extent. And not only do they not give a fuck about me. A lot of them told me “you are a menace, I want you dead, go kill yourself”. My take now on the police status is well, whatever, I am a rich white guy, fuck it. I have got other things that I can worry about. And why am I gonna advocate for people who hate me and have full contempt for me. No, thanks!

Randazza: I still think it’s unjust. I feel I think there is an injustice there. That something needs to be done about it. What I am worried about is if we only look at it as a problem that one group has to deal with, recognizing that they disproportionally have to deal with it, understanding that and I think there are for example I am pro-affirmative action. That does not make me very welcome on the right but I think that there are unique problems to the black community not caused by the black community, caused by 450 years of institutional racism that we need to cure. And there is ways that we need to do that. And I am all in favor of giving a preference to someone who is a descendant of a slave. Because you cannot fix that in one generation or two generations. At the same time, I don’t think that that privilege should be extended to somebody who immigrates. I don’t think if the kids of Mobutu Sese Seko decide to move here, after their father plundered the Congo, they move here and it’s like well I am entitled in affirmative action as well – why? What are you fixing? What has happened to you in your history that would make it just that that would be the case?

M.C.: I actually know a lot of people on the right, myself included, who are opened to the argument for affirmative action limited to descendants of slaves because you can’t get that argument. But then what happens is I read BuzzFeed and they say Oh, I immigrated from India and people asked me where I am from. I need affirmative action. And I am, like, are you out of your mind? You immigrated to United States, they look at you like you are foreign. Well, because you are, doesn’t mean you are bad. It was the same thing when I visited Asia. They are like, oh, you are white? Where are you from? America or Great Britain? It isn’t racism or hostility. It’s simply a fact that I am different. So that everybody wants it, everybody. It has got to the point now where if you are a white man, everybody else has decided you are just straight white man now. You are just evil. So, again, people like me thinking there is no point for me supporting any kind of civil right cause because when you get to the end of the rope, that’s the end.

Randazza: See, and that’s what upsets me as a leftist. I am upset that we have lost you. I am upset about that. That bothers me. But I can’t argue with it, I really can’t. If I have got to convince somebody no no, come on. Come out and march with me, come out and protest with me because we really need to care about this and somebody says those people hate me – I am not really interested. But I do have this other cause that I care about. You can only care about so much at a time. And that’s what leaves me. I feel like this lonely island of leftism where I still believe in what I believed back when I felt like there was a big crowd around me of people that agreed with me. And now as the decades have worn on, I find myself surrounded by more and more right-wing people that I hang out with that I am constantly arguing with but at least they are willing to tolerate my views.

M.C.: The new colored culture, the right – that’s the interesting thing. The new colored culture, it’s the right. Why? It’s because you are not trying to censor feminists on college campuses and that’s why really, and I know white people have to say it, I really hate now that college students want to censor speech because college students is a euphemism. It isn’t colored republicans, it isn’t the college straight white men student society, it’s fucking feminists, it’s social justice that’s always trying to censor people. But even people who are pro-free speech still well still oh yeah college students have lost their mind. No. It’s not but they are terrified, terrified to say it isn’t colored students, it isn’t colored republicans, it’s leftists and social justice warriors and it’s feminists who wanna censor people and we need to figure something out. Everybody is afraid now because of this gender stuff.

Randazza: Yeah, because if you are on the wrong side of it, you are the enemy. If you are on the wrong side of it and then you are fine then they will remove you from campus. I don’t know if you’ve seen the recent story about the Antioch College where the students sent a 15-page letter of demands when even the Antioch college administration says you are maybe being a little childish here. Like that is a sign that you have actually become a parody of yourself on the left. Because the Antioch College… Back in 1988 or 1989 this was the college that wanted you to have a written permission at each progression of a sexual encounter in order to ensure that there was no sexual assault taking place. They were crazy luni left before there was such a thing. And now even their administration is saying it’s going a little bit far.

M.C.: Yeah, there is a push back even amongst some liberals now. They call their aggressive left. That is sort of their term for social justice warriors. There are guys like, for eample, Dave Rubin’s name, he’s got a good podcast written report, Sam Harris, Joe Rogan, I guess. I’d consider JR more of a liberal than a conservative but he is kind of like you. He is a pro-gun liberal. But if you talk to him about the civil rights issues he’d say a lot of the same thing that you say. And they are starting to push pack because there are a lot of reasons. One is they are realizing now that hey, man, you don’t like Trump? Well, you can take this social justice warriors for that. They created him.

Randazza: I think they did. I mean a lot of constructs are created by this adversity. Let me give an example of maybe that I agree with. You look, let’s say, at the gay rights movement. When Christian radicals were upset about gay rights, about people pushing for it, why do they have to be in like a group seeking special rights – because you, drove them into corner. Because you couldn’t be gay and not be lynched, you couldn’t be gay and not have the shit beaten out of you. I talked to friends of mine who grew up gay in the 70s, before recent times. And that was everywhere you go you had to be afraid. Well, that’s gonna convalesce you into a community. I mean there was a time when there was no such thing as Oh, gay… or straight, it’s kind of what kind of food do you like? Right? I am not a Thai food guy – I am just a guy who happens to eat Thai food. So you create that through that negativity and that isolation. Well, go figure that… You have the rise of Trump which is driving people on the left and the right crazy. On the left they are driven crazy thinking how can people listen to this guy. I know how people can listen to this guy. He is the only guy speaking to them! He is the only guy saying, have you had enough? And if that’s scary to you, well, maybe you should have kept some of those people in your fold before. And then, when I hear people on the right of upset, when I see the Republican Party upset about him, I just laugh… You did this Southern Strategy thing in the Nixon years, you used Reagan. It is just another word for the right-wing racists Southerners who hadn’t bothered to change their party affiliation yet. The Republican Party establishment are shocked that the Southern Strategy worked and then the people on the left are shocked that the people they alienated are flocking to the guy who welcomes them. Trump makes perfect sense to me. And that’s what people who censor people don’t understand. I kind of learned just in my own little microcosm that the more extreme I get now I post I’ve posted things that I don’t agree with at all just to kind of see how they play, to see what engagement they get and everything and I can’t believe that! You know that is what people want to hear but when you censor everybody you’re gonna leave only the extremists out there and that’s how I’m growing my audience. I just get more extreme. You can’t just … my real beliefs are pretty like boring. I believe that men tend to be happier when they may play a masculine role, women tend to be happier when they play a supportive role to a masculine man but if you want to be a woman lawyer, hate your life, and you get one life – you could go and do whatever you want to do. For me that’s boring but you tell somebody that, now, they’re gonna say well, you’re part of the rape culture, patriarchy, those ideas you have actually teach women to internalize massage. And you are, like, fuck you then… I just don’t even care about that at all.

M.C.: Right.

Randazza: Right. One of a very narrow group of things but we agree on some things. We can sit around and be friends and I can go to your wedding and be happy to be there because it doesn’t matter I’m, I’m there because you, I feel like my friends make me grow. My friends make me better. But at the same time I’m such a frigging left-wing feminist that my wife is going to law school. One of my biggest motivations was I didn’t want my children to look at Dad being more accomplished academically than Mom and thinking that that was their lot. I don’t want my son thinking that that was how women are. And I didn’t want my daughter thinking that she couldn’t achieve more. I mean, how much more like left-wing, feminist, male feminist do I have to get?

M.C.: No. It’s not. It’s definitely… You are only a cock if she cheats on you.

Randazza: You know what I am saying. But I can’t say that around people I may be sitting and talking to a group of guys who are saying feminism just gone too far. At the same time this is what I’m doing. And now I’m not welcome there either. The polarization I think is the worst part of it. You said earlier we’re not talking to each other. There’s no room for different factions of people who don’t fit into one side or the other. You’ve gotta pick a team, you’ve gotta pick a pole and if you’re not far enough to the outer wings, if you’re anywhere near the middle, you’re getting shouted down by your own team as well as the other team and yeah, you either withdraw, either move to the edge where you pull out of the game altogether and all that leaves is demagogues.

M.C.: I’m getting a lot of that now. I get trolled all the time because I’ll be the first one to say: Hey, if you look at statistics, white people aren’t going out and killing black people. That just isn’t really what’s happening. So that people are like oh, you are obviously a Neo-Nazi. No. And then people who like myself for saying, you need to just say whites are superior to blacks and that they offer nothing. I am like, fucking-A, guys, really? You try to get them have a conversation. You are either the leftist or it’s like “Mike, you are a Neo-Nazi”. And then the really sort of white nationalist guys are like “well, you’re just a pussy, you’re afraid to say that the white man is superior”.

Randazza: Yeah and I mean anybody wants to take one of those positions based on history. Anybody wants to say that white people are superior. Well, we are hell of a lot better at like mass murder, right? I mean, look: World War II was a Caucasian war. We did that. Meanwhile, people in Africa might not have been building these advanced machines and might not yet have a space program. But at least they weren’t engaged in mechanized genocide. That doesn’t make me a black superialist, or a black supremacist but…

M.C.: And Muslims enslaved whites at one time… At one time Mongols … If you look at the course of human history, all people are pretty shitty and sometimes one race is up, sometimes you are down but if you want to actually have an open conversation with people they go nuts. For example, people say the white people are superior to everybody and I go ok, but there was the barbaric slave trade where Muslims would go around Spain and Italy and they would even take some of the English ships and they would pirate them and there was sell white people as slaves. So, how did that happen for hundred years if you are superior? They are, like you are an idiot, you don’t know anything.

Randazza: Look, anybody wants to say white people are superior – look at the Holocaust. Nobody has managed to pull that off with non-white skin yet.

M.C.: Cambodia did pretty close. They did 1.5 million… They’ve got a small population.

Randazza: Let’s hear about the Rwanda genocide. That’s an example of just. I think the Rwanda genocide is probably the most brutal genocide ever because that is not even a racial thing. It’s just that just happens to be that people were killing their neighbors. It wasn’t like people dragging strangers into a concentration camp, killing them one after the other. I am bringing this up not as this discussion of one race or the other but as the discussion of where do you wind up with polarization.

M.C.: That’s where you wind up.

Randazza: And there is there is room, I think, for the discussion of certain things. Maybe we should suppress certain speech. I don’t know if you’ve done much studying of the Hutu and the Tutsi, but I don’t know I challenge anybody except Hutu or Tutsi to be able to tell one from the other. Ethnically they are not any different. It was just when the Belgians came in, they said anybody who had a certain number of cows was Tutsi, and there you’re in the ruling class and Hutus are in the lower class and they use that class division that they artificially created in order to help rule the country with less people and less guns because it’s easier if you can tell one group you’re above this other group. And that is the thing that I gotta wonder. How could that happen here and that kind of thing really happened here? And I think that would be just too damn civilized and too advanced for that. How could that happen, but at the same time then you think well it’s happened in other places where nobody would have ever predicted it.

M.C.: So that’s what happens when you send people into the underground. That’s what the Cambodian Holocaust was. They sent all the people who challenge the establishment underground, they went to France and met with all the other real radicals. That’s where the Khmer Rouge came to be. Then they went back in. They were still in the underground. They create a little underground army and then they came and they start killing people. If we’re talking, we’re not gonna kill each other. If we are arguing, screaming at each other despite our political differences, we’re not going to kill each other. And then if other people talk about killing one or the other of us, we are going to have a problem with that. But what I’ve seen people, social justice warriors, say that people like me belong to internment camps. So right when could we have a holocaust here? Well, they want to re-educate people now in college, make them go to these mandatory privilege courses. They now believe that college men have no due process rights on college campus for rape. They now believe that if you’re a man and you say something on Twitter that a woman said, that’s far worse, only the man should be punished. Well that’s all slippery slope stuff.

Randazza: I think as if you believe in liberty. I think the one thing you need to work on, and this is advanced, it’s difficult. You gotta stand up for injustice committed against people that you don’t like, when you hear I mean don’t agree at all with. With a lot of campus conservative discussions. I wrote a piece on Popehat recently “No Safe Spaces for Conservatives”. There was a woman who wrote about the fact that the biggest killer of black people is not the police. It’s other black people because they commit… Because it’s abortion. It was really, I think, a childish road, saying that there’s a holocaust on black babies being committed by black women and we have to stop having abortions because that’s what’s really killing them.

M.C.: Right.

Randazza: It’s freaking stupid! The logic is dumb. Her speech was stupid. It is offensive. But then she got dragged into the just an avalanche of people who wanted to drive her off campus, people who were threatening her. She should be dead, she should be silenced. And I’m saying hold on, man, just laugh… like if you want to kill somebody or you want to threaten somebody… Look, sometimes maybe that’s appropriate I can’t say when but I’d say 85% of the time that you have a violent reaction to somebody, pointing and laughing at them just might be more effective. But I felt compelled to stick up for her because who else was going to? And if you find yourself unwilling to do that for somebody you disagree with, you’ve got a problem. There is a really good book that I read a long time ago by Elie Wiesel called “The Trial of God”. It’s about these Jews who are hiding out in a tavern because there’s a pogrom and there’s like 15 of them all the Jews that are left to have all hidden together and they decided to put on this performance to pass the time to because they’re just hiding out as long as they can. And they say well let’s put God on trial for what he’s done to us and the only person willing to play God’s defense attorney is this guy who’s known as the stranger and it turns out that the stranger is actually Satan but he argues effectively and gets God acquitted despite the fact that it was preordained that God was going to be convicted and I always liked that story because it says the guy who’s really supposed to be diametrically opposed to someone can be their defense attorney, can stick up for them and then sometimes change the minds of others.

M.C.: Well, yeah, I had a couple big, sort of, come-to-Jesus moments last year or within the past 18 months. And one was I spent all these years, sort of, I had everybody’s back and then when that Gamergate shit came people are trying to call the police on me, people reporting me to the State Bar, I was like man, I’m sure people are gonna say, yeah, Mike’s a good guy. Dude, if you want to disagree with him, argue with him, but don’t call the fucking state bar on the guy. Don’t call. And it was like, no I didn’t get any of that. I know a lot of people don’t like him. He goes to Canada and there’s a video of him where he held a seminar. He leaves these people tracking down… They had a hate mob, it was all out on the streets looking for him. They find him and then a person throws a beer on him, unprovoked. He was trying to get to his hotel

Randazza: Yeah.

M.C.: They were essentially trying to create mob action on him and I thought yeah people will say something about that. No, nobody said anything about it and then you realized right now if you care about free speech, it’s men speech, it’s men who are men, who are trying to speak in if you defend men who are speaking out or defending our right to free speech you’re going to be persona non grata in the liberal community.

Randazza: Yeah and, and that’s and that’s wrong. I think you really gotta stand up for other people speech I mean Gamergate is just an example of something that goes right over my head. I’ve been accused of being on both sides of that thing but people who are on the male side of it have accused me of being a sellout to the, to the feminist because I stood up for Anita Sarkeesian because somebody threatened her. If she spoke and she shut down her speaking engagement because of it. Some people have speculated that she made that up for sympathy. I’m gonna take it at its, I’m gonna take it at face value that didn’t happen. Okay, I am, I’m willing to believe that people were calling in bomb threats and violent threats to shut her up. I’ve seen how some of these fucking idiots behave. I mean it’s immaturity on both sides of the debate. Hey, I will, I will personally pay for a security detail for Anita Sarkeesian to speak, if it’s gonna let her speak. I don’t care what she has to say, I don’t agree with a goddamn thing she has to say but fuck you if you want to shut her down… But now I expect to see her supporters say the same thing when it’s Roush… What the fuck does Roush have to say that is so threatening to your beliefs? How can you have such weak meaningless beliefs, that you need to threaten violence to shut this guy up? Really? Like your ideas can’t beat him… They just like if somebody wants to shut her down. If your ideas can’t beat her, then your ideas are shit.

M.C.: Yeah it’s funny too. They tried to get him kicked out a candidate, he got in there but before they could kick him out. Well, even the UK talked about for a moment banning Donald Trump for even entering the country which is something that I couldn’t believe in, and it does come back to what you’re saying. These people are afraid of debate. They are afraid to just say “I’ll debate anybody”. And I’ve challenged these people, some of this a publicity, stunt but you know me, I’ll show up, I’ve told these feminist “I’ll show up. I got 10 grand. I’ll donate 10 grand to your charity. All you have to do is show up and I’ve issued this challenge to you, and believe, how many prominent feminists and they all say “Oh, I feel uncomfortable. I’ll get security. We’ll do with it on Skype? They never, they never take it.

Randazza: Well, it’s because nobody wants to give the other side the time a day… And unfortunately as somebody who I see, free expression as the good. I don’t care who it benefits. I’m okay if I wake up one day in a country where we have debated these ideas, and my ideas have lost… like I’m all right with that. I can live with that. But what I don’t like is when I see somebody putting a finger on the scale. That’s where I have a problem…

M.C.: And yeah so let’s talk a little bit… I mean you’ve been very generous with your time and I guess you know we’ve been going a little bit longer than I thought to have you, so I am really appreciate… Let’s… let’s just talk about a couple quick hot takes.

Randazza: Sure.

M.C.: So you’ve been doing some experimentation on Twitter with account sort of A/B testing: what gets you suspended. And what have you found?

Randazza: Look, I mean I am. As soon as I let it be known I was doing this, I got challenged on whether I was doing it scientifically properly and I’m gonna admit I don’t know how the hell to design one of these things perfectly. So let’s just call my evidence anecdotal because if I call it scientific, I don’t want to be full of shit when I when it comes to that. I don’t know if I have enough accounts on it but I have got a couple of accounts that we’ve set up as decoys. Some are certain genders, some are certain political persuasions – they are all saying the same thing. We are just changing who they’re directing it at. Now I also am observing in a separate column people who are doing certain things independently, alright, we don’t control these accounts. But I found that anti-Semitic accounts, you report them to Twitter – they don’t give a shit. I don’t know when all of a sudden it became all right to be anti-Semitic, but if you want to say anything bad about the Jews on Twitter, Twitter’s so-called commitment to ending harassment and bullying does not extend to Jews. That bothers me… And I’m not Jewish but it still, that bothers me a lot… I mean why is it alright if it’s them? But at the same time God help you… and I had a guy who came to me, who had an account and never did anything abusive on it. His girlfriend happens to not be white. A black woman who doesn’t like him put up a series of pictures showing her as a monkey. So, I mean, I don’t know how much more offensive you can get. He reported her for it. He came to me and he said ‘What can I do about it?’ I said ‘You know what? No, you can’t sue her for it, but you can report to Twitter. Twitter has said that it’s got a newfound commitment to getting rid of harassment and this seems to me to be the kind of thing that would fit right in it.’ They instead yanked his account because he complained. What the fuck is that? I don’t necessarily care of Twitter wants to say, listen we are a left-wing organization and we’re not gonna allow people who disagree with us, and we’re taking the side of the Palestinians in the Palestinian versus the Jews fight so that if you don’t like it, fuck you – start your own company, this is a private organization. I don’t have a problem with that. Huffington Post does that and I’ve been banned from the New Republic for daring to say anything remotely centrist. So, and I don’t say to the ‘New Republic’, well, you guys are being, you’re infringing on my rights. It’s not my right to be there. They want me out because they don’t like my politics – that’s absolutely their right to do that. What I don’t like is that Twitter’s lying about it. It’s very clear. So I’m working on this, making sure that my stats are right so that I can say it’s actually statistically correct rather than anecdotally correct. I know people gonna give me shit for admitting that I’m not fully scientifically up to snuff yet, but look what I realized that I got to be honest, I’m not gonna show up with 23% pay differential when it’s only 5%.

M.C.: Well…

Randazza: I am going to say I have not seen anybody who got suspended for making some kind of an anti-semitic remark. I’m not seeing anybody who’s been, if you flip the polarity on this I’m not seeing anybody black for being suspended for yelling at somebody it threatening somebody who’s white. I just haven’t seen it. It’s not happening. And if that’s some kind of an intellectual affirmative action program, alright… just be freaking transparent about it, Twitter.

M.C.: Yeah I’m actually, I actually noticed that today. I found an account that was retwitting these girls, just high school kids being high school kids. These 5 girls in high school lined up with the shirts and it says N-I * * E-R and they’re they’re lined up their little edgy kids. This guy says “give me the names of all these high school kids” and 3 thousand retwits – it’s a full dox. You can’t deny that these girls have been doxxed now everybody’s passing around their information, passing around their phone numbers. Over 3000 retwits already.

Randazza: Yeah…

M.C.: It might be 4000 now… Twitter is not gonna do anything about that… There was another one found, 0 to 3 months back, where a fourteen-year-old girl had posted she said “nigger” or something on Instagram. Some dumb teenage bullshit. She was also doxxed… There were death threats going on, and these were all black people threatening her as a white person’s life. The woman said ‘I laugh at all you people, I’ve been reported for doxing 30 times and you will never suspend me.’

Randazza: Right.

M.C.: … and that’s Twitter’s rules. So, I guess my question to you as a lawyer is I know that nobody has a free speech right to be on Twitter

Randazza: Yeah

M.C.: … but could that be argued in some kind of form of racial discrimination because Twitter so Twitter can discriminate based on race you think?

Randazza: I don’t, I don’t think that there would be a real racial discrimination argument there. I think, I think Twitter can decide that it wants to favor one side of the debate over another, that it wants to suppress certain speech over others and I don’t I don’t have a problem with it doing that, even as a free-speech advocate. My only objection to it is philosophical not legal and that is be transparent about it.

M.C.: It is cool what those girls did?

Randazza: No, I got black relatives I mean it bothers me that somebody’s doing that. These girls are so poorly educated and I can’t imagine how they were raised, that that’s alright with them that they would do that… but I also recognize that they are high school girls, really? Do you really want these girls like terrified to come out of their house, terrified to interact in society? I mean I thought when you said that somebody said I want their identities and I want to know who they are I mean I’m so naive that in my head I thought I know where this story’s going. He got the information, he wrote him a letter and he wrote their parents a letter and said look you’ve really got to educate your kids on this kind of thing and, and they said yeah we’re assholes, we shouldn’t have done that… and now you’ve got people who know better. I mean that and I just that’s not the story… Why isn’t that the goddamn story? Why is the story instead people who sit there and love to just troll on someone have decided that if you’ve made this transgression, I’m gonna beat you into the ground until you can’t show your face ever again. Who is that woman that twitted the thing “I just landed in South Africa. Hope I don’t get AIDS…”

M.C.: Justine Sacco…

Randazza: Okay, from my understanding of it she was actually making fun of that perspective like… she’s not even a person who believes in that. She was shitting on racists who think that you can’t get AIDS if you’re white. Maybe that was a post-hoc justification for what she had to say… but still, why was it ok to drum her into the ground? Mercilessly because she said that? Really?

M.C.: That’s the thing that keeps coming up to us… Okay, so feminists are not going to say to this high school, these 5 high school girls they’re not going to say ‘Wow,wow, wow, you people are doxing five girls who are underage this is atrocious, this is the kind of abuse about women that will not stand here… They are not going to say shit. So then you have to wonder what is really feminism about these days.

Randazza: Oh, man! Come on… you you look at the, there is organization called Cyber Civil Right group …and I have to admit at least one of their leaders is somebody that I admire greatly. I admire, respect, look up to her, disagree with her on almost everything but we can get along… I’m not gonna say who she is in that group because it’ll get her drummed out of it that that she gets along with somebody who disagrees with the group… but they seem to take this perspective that most all women online are harassed online like every woman is raped when she goes onto a college campus and meanwhile yes, I saw a TV show with Milo on it. He said the same thing and they shouted him down that… most abuse online comes from women. It’s women abusing other women. I mean when I when I worked on revenge porn cases yes you did have your jilted male putting up pictures of his ex-girlfriend to shame her. I’m not saying that didn’t happen. It happened a lot but more times than that it was the new girlfriend who found pictures of the ex-girlfriend on the boyfriends’ phone and decided she was pissed off at her and was going to do something about that

M.C.: Okay, no way… someone interrupted you, I’ve actually never heard that in that even, even me in my cynical way so let’s take a step back. I always assumed revenge porn was horny guys or jilted men post them on the Internet purely for the glory of other men. So what you’re telling me that even me in my cynical ways didn’t understand that it is actually more often than not it was women posting this staff?

Randazza: No, I’m not gonna say more often than not… but

M.C.: Uh frequently enough …

Randazza: I would say frequently enough maybe 40-50% of the… up to 50% of the time in it was probably just as often it was an ex-girlfriend, I mean a lot of times just something I was a hacker. I mean a lot of times this was a guy more times than anything it was a hacker. Somebody who decided he’s going to steal somebody’s photographs and then post it because he’s an asshole. I mean I can’t think of anybody who would post revenge porn that has any justification for doing it. Now you wanna shout somebody down and make them hide in their house forever, go after someone like that. But when I look at these so-called academic studies where they say well they’re all these women are harassed. Well, you define harassment. The definitions of harassment was if somebody even starts to talk to you, send someone a message that says ASL – age sex location, well that’s harassment. How is that harassment? You’re trying to start a conversation with somebody is not harassment. Meanwhile, where is the outrage? I mean, look, what better example of somebody who harasses other people online… then Crystal Cox, I mean, so it is absolutes psycho extortion artist. Where were the cyber civil rights people when she’s going after her victims? Like they’re nowhere to be found. It’s not about stopping harassment online. It is really a feminist academic agenda that makes it so much easier to be unchallenged, when you stand up there with tears in your eyes saying ‘Every woman has been raped, every woman is harassed online’. And this is, this is a problem for women, because you get every woman saying ‘Yeah right on’, cuz they probably a lot of women if not everyone is probably who’s ever been online has been harassed to some point or another… Well, I see that you are getting harassed all the time, I mean if you think it’s only happening to me and my little subgroup, you’re going to be very much in favor of that, but also if you’re a guy and you try to say well hey, hold on I get harassed too, you’ll sound a little bit like a pussy. You’ve got to admit that we are just as constrained by traditional gender roles. As any woman is told to get the hell back in the kitchen. When I complained about Crystal Cox harassing me and my family. Yeah, I got to admit I feel a little bit like I shouldn’t be bitching about it cause whatever it’s a girl, girl given you shit.

M.C.: Yeah, I couldn’t leave my house for a weekend cause these idiots we’re trying to get me I’m swatted

Randazza: Right.

M.C.: You know it, and I would say that I felt like a bitch, but it I was for a while a little bit angry. I was like look I’m a verified person.

Randazza: Yeah

M.C.: I can prove that these people… these so-called victims like Zoe Quinn and others. I could prove that they’re the ones spreading my dox but I hear think they’re the victims right when it’s anonymous trolls harassing them, but no, no! I have screencaps, archives I have all the evidence.

Randazza: I saw that when they posted a picture of your house and it’s again that’s all right… Just once I’d love to see one of these groups who say that they are against harassment. Just pick a token, guy and say this is … a token guy being harassed by a woman just to placate us, just have one. Not even like look at it equally. Pick fucking one and put that in there and say yeah, we’re not for this either… but they won’t do it. They will not do it. I challenge the cyber civil rights initiative to give a fuck about one guy not me, not you – pick some random guy and help him out. Just so that you can say an equals one. And I’ll be so impressed… but I think, I think if they did that, it would cause a schism in the organization because then you’d have the people on the edge, the true believers who refuse to believe that it could be anything but them in their special group that gets harassed and they’ll start screaming at the reasonable ones. And you’ll see that group break into a million pieces over it.

M.C.: Yeah, there would be a total meltdown. Because I’ll admit i’m privileged ok I’m a big guy got a little bit of money, I hired a private investigator, I scared all these little retards off so… if you want to say well he has privileged… But whatever! I’m not gonna argue that point so I get it you don’t want to care about my case, then I’m like well here’s these other guys who are they try to get kids fired from Dick’s Sporting Goods, he has some part-time job there… what why don’t you just find some geek? Some helpless guy?

Randazza: Yeah

M.C.: But in their world in that cult thinking, if you’re born a man you’re just you have an easier and better than anybody else can so you’re not worthy of it and moreover attacking you is punching up you. You deserve it! Maybe you’ll become a better person.

Randazza: Yeah, and look I agree that there are certain forms of privilege that we have… like I’m alright with… with acknowledging that. I know, I can walk around at night no one’s gonna rape me. When you’re coming to visit my house at night if you’re late you’re probably just lost and if a woman in the same situation is, I am a little more worried, I don’t know what could have happened… I’m not gonna get roofied at a party. But it was actually a really funny story… Well, funny now, time plus pain equals humor but there was a girl at a party… she didn’t want to finish her wine and she’s like here ‘Do you want? I’m gonna throw this out…’ I’m like don’t let it go to waste and little did we know some asshole, he spiked her drink.

M.C.: Yeah and I travel and someone who travels, I know, what it’s like it’s a man, I can travel alone. I can do whatever I wanted you to do. So, and that’s a good way we go back to earliest if people wanted to say ‘Hey! Men do a lot of shit in the world but they do some good in the world too. Let’s end the shitty male behavior while incentivize a good male behavior.” I would say ‘Sure here do I sign up?’

Randazza: Right.

M.C.: But there is no organization where people say ‘Yeah, if this is true it’s nice being a man. I can walk around when I traveled by myself. I don’t have to worry about anything that’s great! But that doesn’t mean I’m a rapist and that if you get to an elevator me as a woman you should call me a rapist.’

Randazza: That’s right.

M.C.: And I am I to process rights and that’s what’s happening now.

Randazza: I think what’s important is we all have to recognize there are situations when we do have privilege. Like, I know every time I get pulled over cause I drive outrageously fast all the time, in my very expensive BMW, and I don’t give a shit… Maybe I should. But, I also know when those blue lights come on and back at me, I’m totally relaxed, ‘cause I know he’s not gonna shoot me. I’m a rich white guy in a BMW, right? I know that if I was a black guy in that car that would be an instantly much more hostile situation. I know, that even a black lawyer can wind up in that same car, on that same street, at that same time and he has to have his heart jumping to his throat, that this could be the day that I die. I mean, I never think that when I get pulled over. And I gotta recognize that that’s there, and I know that’s probably not going to make me very popular with your fans, that I recognize, but I gotta recognize that. I gotta recognize that I can walk down a dark street and the worst thing that might happen to me is somebody might try to jack me, but if they do, I give my wallet and so here take it, I don’t give a shit, no amount of cash in my pocket is worth getting knifed by you, even if you’re a crappy, even if you’re a punk. Fuck it! Here, you want to bad enough to rob me – have it! I know that if thumb I’m a woman that may not be the end of that encounter. I know I can walk through the streets of Cologne on New Year’s Eve and I’m not going to get ring by a bunch of guys trying to put their finger up my ass, because I’m just standing there. I recognize these things. But I would just like to see a little recognition by everybody that we all have a little bit of honor and advantage depending on the tactical situation but a woman walks out of a room with me and puts on a fake set of tears and says ‘He just put his hand up my dress’ and I didn’t do that, I’m never ever going to be able to disprove it. And when a woman claims, like it, look at the Rolling Stone article that we all believed it, I don’t know if you did. I bought it, hook, line and sinker ‘cause who would lie about such a thing? Why would anyone make that up?

M.C.: I assume all those are hoaxes now.

Randazza: Yeah.

     M.C.: I think, everything I read … it’s just that’s my heuristic analysis is it’s a hoax…

Randazza: Well, I’m at least willing to sit back and wait. Now I know, there was a time when no one ever believed the woman, in a situation like that and now we’ve swung to the point where if you question it, my God, you’ve done something awful. But is it really so hard for people to just acknowledge that there are situations when we all have a little bit of an extra edge and when we do, let’s recognize that look down from that extra edge and say anybody who doesn’t have this edge. I’m gonna look out for them in that kind of a situation. What’s wrong with that?

M.C.: Well that and that’s again because we don’t… we don’t talk to each other and everybody now wants to have a victim’s mindset. That’s the that the thing that I always worry about when I write about these issues is I don’t want my guys now to start to think well I’m a man; therefore, I’m impressed, because I don’t like people to think like that.

Randazza: No, have a badass mindset right, say that I say that okay, yes, a woman does need to be a little more afraid when she gets doxxed, right? We got to admit that. And if somebody fucking doxes as a woman, we should all rally around and say fuck you that’s wrong. At the same time if a guy is getting harassed and maybe he’s hemmed in a little bit by, the fact that it… You don’t want to seek out that victim mentality, wouldn’t it be nice to see a crowd of women online say ‘Hey, leave this guy alone… because he may not want to complain cause he’s trying to man up. But we’re going to complain for him.’ At the same time though I want him to step up for her. Why can’t we step up for each other?

M.C.: And we look at what happened …

Randazza: And William victims podium…

M.C.: Yes, it goes both ways and again that’s why it’s a struggle, so great example is a team Harpy Guy. He’s a man who had no real understanding of how crazy everything is, so if your man and you don’t understand this landscape and they start to come after you, you’re thinking well just ignore it, people won’t believe it and you don’t have those public relations.

Randazza: It’s incredible, what happened to him

M.C.: Yeah.

Randazza: I mean this this is a guy who never did anything to anyone he was a nice kid is a fucking librarian, are you kidding me? Like he couldn’t have been the nicest nicer guy, he couldn’t have been more polite, he couldn’t have been more, just if I was his dad, I would be so damn proud of him… and he broke up with a girl, who decided she was pissed off at him so she posted some video of him drunk talking about how we hooked up one time at a conference and all the sudden that blows up into… we need a code of conduct at these conferences because this guy harasses women… Where did that come from? And then one after the other everybody jumped on the bandwagon and next thing, you got one person citing to another person to another person… and when you get to the bottom of it, you say where is your proof if this happen? What are you basing this on? You say well I’m basing on that somebody else said it and I believe her… they had the audacity to call that a “whisper network”. And I said why don’t you call it what it is, it’s a gossip… and then I was of course the sexist for using that term because women are typically gossips. But that guy got railroaded and it is one of the few people when people call me and they want to file a defamation claim my advice is almost always, I mean, I charge people a lot of money for the initial consult in a defamation claim because I’m so sick of people calling me up with bullshit defamation claims and sometimes I even refunded if I can talk him out of it quickly… and this guy the more I listened to him, I said ‘You know what I’ll put my name on it, yeah, I’m with you. Something terrible happened to you here and it’s not right.’ A lot of people talk to me privately that they knew that was happening to him was wrong and nobody had the courage to step up. Nobody. Because everybody was petrified at what would happen. I mean, that’s not liberty, that’s not freedom of expression that’s if you’re just you’re what’s right and what the truth is and you won’t speak up, because you’re afraid. First of all, fucking shame on you! There’s a reason that people get away with shit like this, and that’s because other people won’t speak up. I mean, I’ve been in situations myself where it’s like well somebody just come here and say the truth and they are afraid to do so, because they’re afraid of somebody who’s threatening them or who makes it clear to them that that’ll be that’ll be the end of them or they’ll take some retribution against them and you sit there and you just say wow… I mean, I tell you I think that the biggest… the most… the worst words, that I think exist in the English language are ‘I just don’t want to get involved’… mean, I don’t know how many times you’ve been there on time, how many times anybody watching has been there but that’s just words that I ever heard growing up in Gloucester, Massachusetts and I hate to say that the my towns better than your town anybody but those words you get your fucking ass kicked. Something bad was happening to somebody, well you might join in, you might join in and beat the shit out of somebody with a whole crowd of people to join in on our beating the shit outta, which I don’t think it’s right either… but nobody would say I dude, I don’t want to get involved… somebody would step up there and say get the fuck off of what are you doing? And that would have been in any situation, you see the wrong thing happening. Somebody’s getting wrongly accused of something, you know that somebody’s wrong and, man, I recently had a dispute, I can’t fully talk about but I’ll tell you what I got a lot of dude I don’t want to get involved. And I’ve never known a betrayal like that. But if you want to be if you want to live in a pussy world like, that well then go ahead, say it’s not my problem but you see something on just like that happening to somebody, step the fuck up. Especially, if it’s somebody that you disagree with. Especially, if you’re right wing and you see it’s happening to a feminist that you fucking can’t stand. Step up, because you… your ideas are gonna beat her or not beat her. And similarly if you’re some left-wing critical race theorist and a guy who happens to be the Grand Wizard of the KKK, if it’s happening to him, step up for him and say ‘That’s not how I want to win. I want to win, because his ideas are wrong.’ The best protest I’ve ever seen against something like that… I’ve seen 2 protests against really hardcore racists that, I think, were really effective. One was, there was a Klan rally and somebody came to me at a law firm I was working at for the summer and said ‘Hey, I got an idea. Every… every minute that they’re out there let’s pledge a certain amount of dollars to a black scholarship fund.’ I said ‘Fucking love it! Put me down!’ So we all ponied up and we made sure sent the information to this to the KKK, and we said ‘Every minute you’re out there, you’re sending another black kid to college.’ It was perfect… How can you not win on that? And another one was I saw a Nazi rally. And these Nazis were walking down the street and a guy walked alongside on the on the sidewalk as the Nazis walk down the middle of the street with the cops lining up to make sure nothing happened to them. And he played the tuba. So every step they took it went ‘Womb, womb, womb…’ and it just turned into such a comical seen. So you need to turn lemons into lemonade or mock… but there was no reason to throw bricks at anybody in either of those situations and in fact both of those situations turned out to be totally positive.

M.C.: Well, thanks… think it is a great way to end, Mark… I really appreciate you coming on…

Randazza: Yeah, my pleasure.

M.C.: If you want to come on again it’d be good to talk about more trends like this there… We have covered a lot of ground actually, we have covered a lot more than I thought we would, so if you have anything else you’d like to close with please go right ahead.

Randazza: No, I… I got it what I promised I’d take my wife to a party tonight so she’s getting… getting kind of hot it up for me right now. I’d better go do the same.

M.C.: Sounds great, I’ll talk to you soon, Mark.

Randazza: Alright, see ya.